Can You Convince This Guy to Become Methodist?

Recently I had a conversation about ministry with a very creative person.  He was bright and could articulate theology in new and exciting ways.  Within his church, this expression took form both in his preaching, as well as the arts and music. Besides his creative approach, he was also entrepreneurial, having started a church and done quite well.  As we spoke, I shared my background and interests with him, which was very similar.  One main difference between us is that I am a United Methodist pastor and he is non-denominational.

At one point he shared that he had thought of joining a denomination, but wasn’t sure what if any advantages it would afford him.  I suggested he might want to consider the United Methodist denomination.

Then he asked me the big one.  It should have been an easy question for me, but it wasn’t. 

“So Don, why would I want to be Methodist?”

Stumbling a bit, I mentioned some of the institutional benefits like a guaranteed appointment and a pension (neither of which I have, but that’s another story).  In any case, it wasn’t convincing to my friend, since both of us believe tenure often rewards mediocrity.  I explained how Wesleyan theology was very close to his viewpoints, but he wondered why he couldn’t just have that theology on his own. I also resisted giving the standard answer people always gave me, “Oh we could use someone like you.”  I was never that into being used by an institution and neither was my friend. 

“No.  That’s not what mean,” he said.  “I don’t care about all that stuff.  Why would the United Methodist church be a good fit for me?  Why would it be the best place for me to do this ministry?”

I knew what he meant.  Here was this innovative entrepreneurial guy asking if my denomination was the kind of organization that welcomed those qualities.  From my own experience, I knew most UMC people would say they would welcome a creative self-starter.  Yet in actual practice, I have found the pressure to make such a person fit in can far exceed people’s best intentions.

Like me, my friend wanted to be in the place where he could rise to his greatest creative potential and where he could be who God created him to be.  I must admit I had to struggle to explain how the United Methodist Church, or any denomination for that matter, was such a place.   Sure I could have sold him on the institutional perks and explained that with a little skill he could learn to work the system, find back channels, and ways to bend rules so he could do what God called him to do, all the while defending himself from the suspicions and criticisms of his colleagues.  But how appealing is that?  How old and burnt out will he be when he masters those skills? Wouldn’t it just make more sense for him to follow God’s call and do what God is calling him to do?

As you can probably tell, I have mixed feeling on this question myself.  So let me throw this question out to all of you.  Without saying “We could use someone like him,” how would you convince an innovative creative and entrepreneurial person that United Methodism was a good match their personality type?  Or is it more accurate to say that the UMC is a great denomination for those of a certain mindset, just not someone with those traits? Do hierarchies inevitably squelch creativity?  Is the kind of innovation and creativity that works and is needed in our churches compatible with the UMC structure? For those of you in other denominations, is it compatible with your structure?

Comments

[Dances With Klingons]

Part of the problem with the "institutional" format of Church is just that. Institution.

I used to be a UMC myself, but left due to the fact that the church is always trying to get people in the doors, instead of going to those that are hurt, lost and needing guidance.

If your friend is doing the work of God than you should not try to convince him to join up with you.
For if he is on God's side, who can be against him, or you?

I look at the structure of nature, which was made by God, and it doesn't have to think or be like the systems that WE humans think God wants.

Also, praying about our systems and looking to see if God still wants to use them or not.
Why do you think he started over with Jesus?

Some people don't need the "structure" of the Institutional Church, just look at some of the tribes in Africa who have not taken the churchianity approach.

I suggest you read the book "This Present Future: Six Tough Questions for the Church" by Reggie McNeal

He made me realize that most institutions are not asking the right questions. The IC's then ignore the right questions and loose out.

God is shifting things again. Follow the leader. Jesus. Focus only on him.

[Don Heatley]

I had to unpublish a previous comment since the link back to the commenters homepage must have been spammed. The page featured pictures of a young woman in her underwear...uh, that wasn't the kind of convincing I was referring to ;-)

Anyway here is the text of their comment:
"Methodists now have full communion with Lutherans and Presbyterians. That's a plus. Not to mention Methodists are moving to an open church format."

Not sure the full communion thing would bring in creative types. I'm not sure how it works anyway. I think that most Conferences would not approve of one of their pastors serving a church in another denomination.

Also, what is this open church format to which you refer?

[onlywonder.com]

Don, for me the ultimate answer is that aligning with a denominational expression of faith is submitting one's self to an expression of authority that lies outside ourselves, or our congregational board/elders. I confess that we don't live up to the ideal, but I believe that being a part of connectional system can be a prophetic statement against the radical individualism that is rampant in modern American culture. The problem with creative entrepreneurial types is that we sometimes need a voice of authority that helps us to recognize that it's not all about us, and that we are in relationship to something far bigger than our current sphere of influence. Now one doesn't have to be United Methodist to enter into that type of relationship, however there is an advantage to being a part of a group that has had a couple of hundred years to work out relational issues and can anticipate problems to come. I'll never forget Tom Frank noting that Willow Creek has never been through the change of a Senior Pastor, and once they go through it, they will likely have to develop policies and procedures like those we find in the Book of Discipline.

Can we develop and maintain theologies on our own apart from a denominational identity? For sure, but it seems to me that there is a special power and authority that comes when we are able to claim a place in a tradition that goes beyond our own experience. In example, I always struggled in the Southern Baptist tradition of my youth because my theology was "different." While I eventually left to do my own thing, I found great solace when I discovered in seminary that I was in fact in tune with the Christian stream of Eastern Orthodoxy which went back thousands of years. Suddenly I found my place in the larger story of faith which had threads in the Methodist/Wesleyan story as well.

So ultimately becoming a part of an older and larger group is about placing ourselves in the larger story, and finding a place of accountability that we can't obtain on our own.

[Don Heatley]

Hi Jay,
Thanks for your insights. In general, I have not found creative entrepreneurial types to think it's all about them, but can understand how that could be a danger. In fact, I find creative types acutely aware of being part of something larger than themselves and that is usually the source of their creativity.

Agreed it will be interesting to see how mega-churches handle leadership transitions, however, how emerging churches handle this challenge may be even more relevant to our discussion.

BTW are you going to the emergingumc event next month in Indianapolis?
Peace,
Don

[John Meunier]

Great question.

My first reaction is to say the question is wrong. This pastor is not a free agent. He is called. If the question is whether he wants to be a Methodist or whether he thinks it would benefit him, then the denomination would be wise not to accept him.

If he has no sense of call to this particular form of church, then it would wrong for him to join it. It is the same with new candidates. The question is not so much what they want, as what they are called to.

"Why would the UM church be the best place for me to do ministry."

"Well, I have no idea. What is God saying to you about that?"

[Mike Lindstrom]

I would say this - you have the chance to not only influence a congregation but other pastors as well. Our connection is really among the clergy. That spirit of creativity is a gift to be shared and some needed it shared with them. The UMC is a natural place to do ministry together. I love Twittering with church gurus and pastors of all kinds, but I have an immediate and like-hearted, like-theology connection with my UMC clergy friends.

That said - I believe i was called to UM ministry. I like the Methodist theology and the sense of being accountable to the authority of the Church not just the congregation. Congregational accountability is too easily wrapped up in feelings, which can change or can be held for mistaken reasons of misperception. Larger "Church" authority is able to be objective with me and with the church (whether they are is a different discussion).

The only true answer to his question, in my opinion, is that God calls him to the UMC.

[onlywonder.com]

Don,
Gathering? What gathering?
jv

[Don Heatley]

jay,
This gathering:
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=47842&loc_id=1062

[Spencer Smith]

Great post! You articulate well, even as you confess, the "benefits" of the institution. I love it.

I would say the only reason to become a United Methodist is because of a local church. I am a United Methodist pastor, but not because of any institutional perks... and I am a UM pastor only so long as I am able to accomplish God's calling. I wouldn't be a UM pastor if it wasn't for the relationships that I formed before I was a UM pastor. The only institutional appeal would be our connectional structure, except that connectionalism is a joke... its a good idea, but it doesn't work.

In your friends case, I say don't join the UMC unless he wants to be sent out into some church where his gifts are going to be used the same as in his church start.

The way to get creative leaders in the UMC is through the local church. Our churches look too much to the Bishop to solve their problems when our churches are the real catalyst for change in the denomination. Do we want more leaders? Well, lets grow our churches and through evangelism some will be called into ministry. Its all grassroots...

[Don Heatley]

John, as far as the question of call goes, I don't believe it obviates the need to be able to explain why the UMC would be a good fit for someone. Although there are spiritual components of the discernment process for any decision, there are also intellectual ones. Weighing the pros and cons of a decision figure into it. Reason is a part of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, is it not?

If we don't have to do any "selling" of the UMC, then what is the purpose of the Rethink Church campaign or any church growth program? We wouldn't even need to put signs in front of our churches. People would just be "called" to show up.

I don't mean to imply this is what any of you are saying, but I don't equate pondering the benefits of a denomination necessarily with being selfish or self seeking. If the UMC views seeking to fulfill one's creative potential as contradictory to the idea of calling, the I think both my friend and I have our answer.

Mike, I envy your relationship with fellow clergy. In my case, I could not in good conscience advise my friend that in becoming part of the UMC, one enters a Twittering world of like-hearted and like-theology clergy. My experience has been one of explaining to colleagues things like what Twitter is, who Brian McLaren or Diana Butler Bass is, why I have no problem with the theory of evolution etc.. We must keep in mind all conferences and districts are not the same.

As far as selling the benefits of the institution instead of talking things spiritual, I'm sorry but for the most part, that's how it's been "sold" to me. Whenever I was asked to consider taking the next step in ministry, rarely was the conversation about calling and spiritual matters. Usually the discussion was about what rules needed to be followed. That was the whole point of my post. I don't think merely selling institutional benefits is a good thing.

[LV]

Interesting question ...
I became a United Methodist at the age of 16. I found a church that had an open door, an open heart, and an open mind. I found a church that not only welcomed my questions, but viewed them as a testament of faith. I found a church with educated ministers who studied all approaches to Christianity. I found a church who did not have all the answers, but worked diligently to understand a variety of opinions and who was not afraid to discuss them. I found a church who embraced my creativity.

[John Meunier]

Don,

Thank you for the response - here and on the Methoblog.

I'm not much of a realist and no one has ever confused me with a church growth strategist, so my ideas may be crazy. A weak culture of call, though, seems to me to be at the heart of many of our problems as an institution. And I mean a culture of call for clergy and laity alike.

As a practical matter, maybe we do need to sell church and sell the ministry to people. What I believe our theology suggests is that God calls people and our task is to help them discern that call and respond to it. The question is not what the UMC has for you, but what God is calling you to be and do.

Again, I may be crazy. That is how it seems to me.

[Don Heatley]

LV,
I am happy that you found such a church. Vision, the church I serve, is just such a community. Just be aware that the kind of communities to which you and I belong are not celebrated by all in the UMC. May God continue to bless your journey.
Don

[Don Heatley]

John,
I don't think you are crazy at all. I strongly believe in God's call to both clergy and laity. As a church, we are called to form disciples to join in God's project of renewal and reconciliation in the world. Forming disciples in today's world requires creativity, entrepreneurship and risk-taking.

Again, I am not suggesting anyone join the UMC for what it has for them in the selfish sense nor that we "sell" church. What I am suggesting is that the UMC may not be the best place for anyone with the above gifts and calling from God to use those gifts to their full potential for God's kingdom. Whether my friend or anyone else becomes Methodist is not my main point. My main point is to ask why these qualities seem to be so threatening to any denomination, despite the lip service they pay them?

I agree we need to help people discern God's call and respond to it. However, what if their call does not fit in with a denominational structure or expectations? Do we just send them somewhere else? Or do we ask if God is calling our structures to change in response to God's call?

Thanks for your voice in the conversation John.
Don